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October 2, 2006

Posted by glasseye in Uncategorized.
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The theme of session 8 of Living the Questions is inclusiveness, summed up by the quote ‘Jesus loves everybody – get over it!’. With the upcoming General Assembly discussion about the right of homosexuals to be leaders in the church, it was inevitable that we got talking about acceptance of homosexuals. Our church expresses this inclusiveness with a plaque saying it is a church for all people regardless of creed race, class or sexual orientation. This sort of inclusiveness seems easy to accept, but if we’re really going to include everyone, then we also have to include those who have hurt us. If you’re being raped, what comfort is there in knowing that Jesus loves you, if he also loves the person who is raping you? Maybe this love for everyone is a good thing, but there are situations like that where putting up walls to exclude people feels better.

We talked about our church, and whether it feels open and welcoming. Our church is open for people to come in all day, and we welcome anyone coming to our services. But do people know that? Before I became involved with Christianity, it never occurred to me that I was welcome at places like St Andrew’s. I only risked coming because my friend did, and I figured that they would probably accept me if they accepted her. I’m not sure if our church is welcoming to everyone, or if it can be. It’s almost inevitable that a church will be unwelcoming to anyone who has been brought up to hate or fear Christianity, and the sign proclaiming that we don’t discriminate on the grounds of sexual orientation may make it seem unwelcoming to people who through no fault of their own have been taught to fear homosexuals. We could always reply ‘don’t blame us. That’s a barrier someone else created, so its clearly not our fault’. Of course it’s not our fault, but it would be good if we could reach out to those people.

Someone commented that it’s about recognising that there is more than one perfect way to be. Of course there is – even cosmetic surgery recognises two perfect human forms – a perfect male form and a perfect female form. Clearly there is a much greater range of perfect forms than that – in personality and abilities, as well as in physique. But I also think that this idea of recognising that there are lots of different kinds of perfect is limiting. I certainly couldn’t accept the idea of my body, with all the medical problems I have, fitting any idea of perfection. Inclusiveness means not only accepting different perfect forms, but also accepting imperfection.

Caroline Glass

Session Seven notes: Social Justice September 19, 2006

Posted by standrewsltq in Blogroll, Christian Thinking, Christianity: Comments and Questions, Faith, God, notes from the whiteboard, social justice.
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What breaks my heart?

  • Violence (including TV violence)
  • Poverty: doing something about this by teaching English to the very poor to help them get out of the trap
  • Don’t be afraid to seek – be little bit crazy
  • Tell the stories
  • Mental health problems
  • Beggars
  • Children suffering

 Passion for God = passion for justice

Jubilee principle – can we make it work?

                             - are we egalitarian in NZ?

Eucharist =  peanut butter and jelly sandwiches with Koolaid

                 =   loaves & fishes

Consumer treadmill we are on

If the system gives you power, we don’t want to give it up.

Solid principles of government?!

we don’t learn from history

the pain is denial – we don’t want know the reality of injustice

What is justice? What do we mean?

  • Access and share of resources/what we have
  • Be fair “do unto others”
  • Be prepared to stand up
  • Open to the pain of others
  • Systemic nature of justice = choice or lack thereof
  • Proactive (not passive e.g. equal chance)
  • Begins with our own self-esteem
  • Includes all creation

Everyday things are important and I can do something about those

We are too individualised and have lost our social concern.

Feeling of helplessness – there is nothing I can do.

Crippling, can’t escape – but we do not need to make ourselves feel guilty but rather make ourselves change!

The little things do count e.g. Miss Memo “deep etiquette” – about integrity

Are there non-peaceful ways to bring justice? (e.g. Just War?)

But how we going about achieving justice is also important

What about “buying peace” – making justice attractive

Distributive or restorative justice – forgiveness needs also to have some recognition of the injustice (e.g. Truth & Reconciliation Commission in South Africa)

Why do victims of injustice often become perpetrators? (e.g. Middle East)

  • because we are damaged by violence & injustice
  • we need examples of justice to gives us alternative courses of action

Understanding other cultures – different forms of logic and justification

Fi’s thoughts on Social Justice August 19, 2006

Posted by fionnaigh in Christian Thinking, Christianity: Comments and Questions, Faith, God, Religion, Spiritual Study, personal thoughts.
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“The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice.”
- Theodore Parker quoted by Martin Luther King Junior

We had an interesting discussion in this session about whether you can get to peace or get to justice through non-peaceful means. We disagreed in the end. My personal view is that you can’t. I think you have to actively create peace, and you can only do that by being peaceful, not by forcing an end to violence. But people cited the end of World War II and the independence of Bangladesh as examples where perhaps the ends justified the means. It’s complicated, yes. I hope that there are other ways. I think of the Bereaved Families Circle in Israel and Palestine, and the hotline they have created. Anyone can pick up the phone and talk to someone on the other side of the wall. That’s creating peace. Because suddenly the enemy has a voice, and becomes a real person, with hopes, dreams, a family… they become harder to bomb. I think that if we invested as much time, money and energy into this sort of initiative, instead of “peacekeepers” with guns, maybe it would make a difference. But that’s just my opinion. 

Someone in our group commented that if you say you’re against the Israeli bombing of Lebanon to someone who supports it, they automatically assume that you are for the Lebanese bombing of Israel. So not true. Grrrr.  

We also talked about whether you could buy and sell peace. I think we need to sell it. We need to make it attractive, financially as well as in other senses. But that requires a complete turn around of our whole system of value. We have to take into account human value, and environmental value, as well as monetary value. Long term value, and I’m talking generations, not weeks or months, rather than just short term profits. And I don’t know if that is going to happen. Not any time soon. Except it is already happening, in small pockets, all over the world. That gives me hope.  We need to give examples of peace too, make it easy, “Peace and Justice for Dummies”. I think that’s why the victims of injustice can become perpetrators. Because they don’t have good examples to follow.   I guess, as Christians, we have the example of Jesus. I liked Borg’s comment that when we argue about whether Jesus was a spiritual or a political being, we miss the point. He was both. His politics flowed out of his “intoxication with God.”  I think you can have passion for Justice without passion for God, or at least without believing in God. Of course I think that having a passion for justice is of God, from God, is God. But my atheist parents wouldn’t like me telling them they were being Godly. Is it possible to have passion for God without passion for justice? I don’t think so. I think you’d be getting it wrong. But I admit, that’s a fairly arrogant and dangerous attitude. A lot of the people who I think are misguided about God firmly believe that I am the misguided one. 

I think it was Marcus Borg who said that in the USA 1% of the population own 43% of the wealth. Then he went on to say it wasn’t about making the middle class feel guilty about people poorer than them, it was about empowering and educating the entire 99% to be pissed off about the imbalance. I liked that, because I feel so much guilt, and I don’t think it’s a very productive emotion. It can be crippling. Sometimes I feel so guilty about all the bad things I’m doing (like buying sweatshop clothes, not giving every cent I have to charity) I find myself incapable of doing anything good. I just want to crawl back to bed.  

I loved what our group facilitator said, about Rosa Parks, how she did such an ordinary thing but it triggered a huge wave of justice. We have to live our lives as if our every action, however small, like sitting on a bus, could trigger a bigger movement.  

The DVD finished with this beautiful grace from Argentina:  

God bless to us our bread
And give food to all those who are hungry
And hunger for justice to those who are fed.
God bless to us our bread.

Amen

Session 6 notes: Intimacy with God August 13, 2006

Posted by standrewsltq in Christian Thinking, Christianity: Comments and Questions, Faith, God, Religion, Spiritual Study, notes from the whiteboard.
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Here are some brainstorming notes from the sessions held on July 16 & 18 2006. Feel free to add your own thoughts in the comments section.

How can we explain the prayer experience – are we still praying to “something” out there, separate from the world? Who or what am I praying to?

Inadequacy of the word ‘prayer.’ 
  -  we all bring our own limited meanings and constraints about what we think prayer is.
Attempts to get close can result in “compartmentalism”(resource link: Honest Prayer, John Spong)

“Prayer cannot be a request made to a theistic deity to act in human history in a particular way.”

  • special places and times to share our warmth
  • our lives as an expression of our attempt to live closer to God
  • our lives as a prayer – but it always seems to fall short
  • anger is central to healthy relationships (also with God)
  • every little bit of love helps
  • public prayer compared with private prayer
  • prayer is communication
  • is prayer limited to talking? can drawing a picture, or watching the stars move be prayer?

“I listen to God and God listens to me.” – Mother TheresaTaking time = patienceTaking time to be thankful = “gifts” of time (waiting)(Resource link: Henri Nouwen, L’Arche Community)

“A person kneels before a duck to reflect upon the troubles and joys of life, and offers thanksgivings and expressions of hope. This search for the human spirit leads to love and a better world.”
(Resource link: When I talk to you: A cartoonist talks to God, by Michael Leunig)

Seeing our being as part of the human family

Activities that bring out our prayerfulness:

  • dancing
  • crochet
  • running
  • tramping
  • gardening
  • painting
  • singing

relationship between me and the mystery / God beyond me

Experience of transcendence / Accessing the transcendent – living a prayer

Just because God wants to help someone, doesn’t mean that she can help them!

The presenters all seem “iffy” about prayer. It was good that they were honest about their doubts and fears. But it was also disappointing that they didn’t offer more motivation for prayer, or helpful tips!

Setting aside time is important.

Things that can help help:

  • regular discipline of silence
  • meditation
  • reminding ourselves of something “more”
  • treating everything we do as a prayer

Prayer experiences are gifts.

The atmosphere of a church can be conducive to prayer (because so many people have prayed there?)

Making love/making art – time has no significance

(Resource link: Prayers of Life by Michel Quoist)

Fi’s thoughts on Evil Etc. August 13, 2006

Posted by fionnaigh in Christian Thinking, Christianity: Comments and Questions, Faith, God, Religion, Spiritual Study, personal thoughts.
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More talk about sin and atonement. I can’t remember who said what, but one of the theologians on the DVD said that Jesus didn’t die for our sins, he died because of our sins. Which got us onto a discussion about the story that many of us learned in our previous church environments: We are all sinful, and Jesus died to pay for our sins. Which is a really manipulative story. Because all of a sudden you start noticing everything you ever do wrong, and feeling guilty about all sorts of things, because you know that somehow by being imperfect, you’ve killed Jesus. Well, that’s how I used to feel.

I left my previous church because I could not make myself believe that my parents were going to go to Hell.

Now I believe that Jesus lived his life to the full, that he stayed true to his beliefs in truth, love and justice, and he was killed because of it. I don’t believe his death some how makes up for anything I do wrong. But I believe the way he lived his life can teach me something about how to live.

One of the other theologians was talking about martyrdom, and people trying to get martyred, throwing themselves to the lions either literally or metaphorically. Anyway, he said “Before there’s something worth dying for, there’s always something worth living for.” Which I thought was cool. Ok, Jesus died for his beliefs. But that’s not the point. The point is that he lived his beliefs.

I think the theme of tonight was that, instead of telling people that they’re imperfect/sinful (and needing to be redeemed by Jesus’ death) we should be telling people that they are loved and accepted.

I have no trouble believing that the rest of the world are loved and accepted. I have big problems with applying that to myself.

Session 5 Notes: Evil, suffering & a God of love August 13, 2006

Posted by standrewsltq in Christian Thinking, Christianity: Comments and Questions, Faith, God, Religion, Spiritual Study, notes from the whiteboard.
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Here are some brainstorming notes from the sessions held on 18 & 20 June 2006. Feel free to add your own thoughts in the comments section.

Who is God we are talking about?

  •  traditional view of God
  •  big mystery
  •  cant be inside yourself…?
  • = “conventional wisdom” (Borg)

Who wants to sacrifice themselves?
but we all do it (in some way)
but what is the other option?
- selfishness
- fear of closeness, fear of opening yourself to others

Self-protection mechanism

  •  someone else will do it
  •  scared of the disappointment of hopes (e.g. Nthn Ireland)
  • Can’t enjoy the good times without the bad…?

Acknowledge the reality of suffering

but there are different types of suffering = different causes of suffering

More important is our response – try to do something to reduce suffering

Not try to answer why

(but this is religion’s job?!)

the answer to why is what we do:

good responses: love, compassion, protest

bad responses: doing nothing, judgmentalism, not my problem (denial)

suffering is very important for our picture of the Divine
elements of our picture of the Divine include:
1. inner resources to respond (finding the God within)
2. others who support us

a) cross as a mistake = the senselessness of suffering

b) but fact that Jesus shared our suffering is an important source of strength for many people’s faith lives

a & b) together = integrity of love & forgiveness

******************

Don’t like the Korean fairy story – result more important than the path, it seems to be encouraging sacrifice or giving away what you cannot afford

All dumped onto God – no mention of other people (can we “send away” pain?)

= old models of God being resorted to

Does there have to be a happy ending?

Buddhist acceptance of pain and compassion of people to people

Compassion = when our souls are touched by suffering of others

There is an imprint within us that we can name sacred/divine

“I’ve never come across a baby that was evil!”

types of suffering need to be differentiated:

  • torture
  • horrific violence
  • extreme illness

do we have to say why? E.g. the Cross as senseless violence

some explanations/reasons do not give meaning

can we accept random violence?

Importance of failing

We have choices but different ability to choose

Balance valuing yourself/ego with humility

Session 4 notes: Restoring Relationships August 13, 2006

Posted by standrewsltq in Christian Thinking, Christianity: Comments and Questions, Faith, God, Religion, Spiritual Study, notes from the whiteboard.
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Here are some brainstorming notes from the sessions held on 16 & 21 May 2006. Feel free to add your own thoughts in the comments section.

Three biblical paradigms:

1. Bondage/Liberation
socialisation = ‘role models’are we just our socialisation?
We have an essential self beyond our socialisaiton
How conscious are we of our socialisation?
Key to liberation is awareness of our social conditioningMaking present events of the ancient past – how?2. Exile/Return
dominant culture issue
dark side of the return was breaking up lives and families
new ways of thinking about these dynamicsis
a “non-oppressive” dominance possible?
Our personal experiences of living overseas contain this element of “coming back”

3. Sin/Forgiveness
atonement = at-one-ment
point of Jesus death:– a mistake? Just senseless violence?
- or was he aware of the consequences & risks of his actions/ following his convictions?There is meaning (for many people) in knowing that Jesus shared in suffering

Bloodied imagery/metaphor of Christianity – but there are also important blood connections…?

God does not kill or want us to suffer

Guilt & manipulation are part of the experience of many with sin/forgiveness

Martyrdom = challenging structures and powers, (but it is wrong to be an intentional martyr)

- something worth dying for is first however worth living for!!

What about a fourth paradigm – the “Not-good-enough” paradigm?
Constant talk about sin & sacrifice – what to do when you feel guilty?
Language of God “overwhelming”
violence seems wrong – better is God transforming it
– individual responses/reactions

God love is seeds with potential when nurtured…

Session 3 Notes: Creativity and stories of creation August 13, 2006

Posted by standrewsltq in Christian Thinking, Christianity: Comments and Questions, Faith, God, Religion, Spiritual Study, notes from the whiteboard.
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Here are some brainstorming notes from the sessions held on 18 & 23 April 2006. Feel free to add your own thoughts in the comments section.

Myths – ‘alive’ or ‘dead’?

What God can’t cope with – irresponsibility

“Hebrew” word plays used by Spong and other liberals

“dominion” equates to responsibility
– I take responsibility but seek guidance for the right way
= finding a middle of seeking the divine – about being truly and fully responsible.

  • this is all huge leaps of interpretation!!?

Forgiveness – cheap?
Must have consequences?
Coming from a positive place

Guilt/sin very pervasive in our culture – the “young people” so hung up? Probably…!

It is about trust & rebuilding trust

Being free and dealing with our egos

Guilt a healthy sign?

Or not a good place to start:

Traps you

Weakens

Not about the right things or the important things

Do I have to forgive God for making me the way I am?
Being ‘good’ – what is that?
About being whole
Optimal sets of relationships
Repentance is a corrective mechanism
Public acknowledgement of our mistakes and doing something about it
Sense of grace = place of harmony = where I want to be

Creativeness keeps on going – we all participate in this

Openness of creativity – letting things grow in a “looser” way