We talked about our church, and whether it feels open and welcoming. Our church is open for people to come in all day, and we welcome anyone coming to our services. But do people know that? Before I became involved with Christianity, it never occurred to me that I was welcome at places like St Andrew’s. I only risked coming because my friend did, and I figured that they would probably accept me if they accepted her. I’m not sure if our church is welcoming to everyone, or if it can be. It’s almost inevitable that a church will be unwelcoming to anyone who has been brought up to hate or fear Christianity, and the sign proclaiming that we don’t discriminate on the grounds of sexual orientation may make it seem unwelcoming to people who through no fault of their own have been taught to fear homosexuals. We could always reply ‘don’t blame us. That’s a barrier someone else created, so its clearly not our fault’. Of course it’s not our fault, but it would be good if we could reach out to those people.

Someone commented that it’s about recognising that there is more than one perfect way to be. Of course there is – even cosmetic surgery recognises two perfect human forms – a perfect male form and a perfect female form. Clearly there is a much greater range of perfect forms than that – in personality and abilities, as well as in physique. But I also think that this idea of recognising that there are lots of different kinds of perfect is limiting. I certainly couldn’t accept the idea of my body, with all the medical problems I have, fitting any idea of perfection. Inclusiveness means not only accepting different perfect forms, but also accepting imperfection.

Caroline Glass

We had an interesting discussion in this session about whether you can get to peace or get to justice through non-peaceful means. We disagreed in the end. My personal view is that you can’t. I think you have to actively create peace, and you can only do that by being peaceful, not by forcing an end to violence. But people cited the end of World War II and the independence of Bangladesh as examples where perhaps the ends justified the means. It’s complicated, yes. I hope that there are other ways. I think of the Bereaved Families Circle in Israel and Palestine, and the hotline they have created. Anyone can pick up the phone and talk to someone on the other side of the wall. That’s creating peace. Because suddenly the enemy has a voice, and becomes a real person, with hopes, dreams, a family… they become harder to bomb. I think that if we invested as much time, money and energy into this sort of initiative, instead of “peacekeepers” with guns, maybe it would make a difference. But that’s just my opinion. 

Someone in our group commented that if you say you’re against the Israeli bombing of Lebanon to someone who supports it, they automatically assume that you are for the Lebanese bombing of Israel. So not true. Grrrr.  

We also talked about whether you could buy and sell peace. I think we need to sell it. We need to make it attractive, financially as well as in other senses. But that requires a complete turn around of our whole system of value. We have to take into account human value, and environmental value, as well as monetary value. Long term value, and I’m talking generations, not weeks or months, rather than just short term profits. And I don’t know if that is going to happen. Not any time soon. Except it is already happening, in small pockets, all over the world. That gives me hope.  We need to give examples of peace too, make it easy, “Peace and Justice for Dummies”. I think that’s why the victims of injustice can become perpetrators. Because they don’t have good examples to follow.   I guess, as Christians, we have the example of Jesus. I liked Borg’s comment that when we argue about whether Jesus was a spiritual or a political being, we miss the point. He was both. His politics flowed out of his “intoxication with God.”  I think you can have passion for Justice without passion for God, or at least without believing in God. Of course I think that having a passion for justice is of God, from God, is God. But my atheist parents wouldn’t like me telling them they were being Godly. Is it possible to have passion for God without passion for justice? I don’t think so. I think you’d be getting it wrong. But I admit, that’s a fairly arrogant and dangerous attitude. A lot of the people who I think are misguided about God firmly believe that I am the misguided one. 

I think it was Marcus Borg who said that in the USA 1% of the population own 43% of the wealth. Then he went on to say it wasn’t about making the middle class feel guilty about people poorer than them, it was about empowering and educating the entire 99% to be pissed off about the imbalance. I liked that, because I feel so much guilt, and I don’t think it’s a very productive emotion. It can be crippling. Sometimes I feel so guilty about all the bad things I’m doing (like buying sweatshop clothes, not giving every cent I have to charity) I find myself incapable of doing anything good. I just want to crawl back to bed.  

I loved what our group facilitator said, about Rosa Parks, how she did such an ordinary thing but it triggered a huge wave of justice. We have to live our lives as if our every action, however small, like sitting on a bus, could trigger a bigger movement.  

The DVD finished with this beautiful grace from Argentina:  

God bless to us our bread
And give food to all those who are hungry
And hunger for justice to those who are fed.
God bless to us our bread.

Amen

How can we explain the prayer experience – are we still praying to “something” out there, separate from the world? Who or what am I praying to?

Inadequacy of the word ‘prayer.’ 
  -  we all bring our own limited meanings and constraints about what we think prayer is.Attempts to get close can result in “compartmentalism”(resource link: Honest Prayer, John Spong)

I left my previous church because I could not make myself believe that my parents were going to go to Hell.

Now I believe that Jesus lived his life to the full, that he stayed true to his beliefs in truth, love and justice, and he was killed because of it. I don’t believe his death some how makes up for anything I do wrong. But I believe the way he lived his life can teach me something about how to live.

One of the other theologians was talking about martyrdom, and people trying to get martyred, throwing themselves to the lions either literally or metaphorically. Anyway, he said “Before there’s something worth dying for, there’s always something worth living for.” Which I thought was cool. Ok, Jesus died for his beliefs. But that’s not the point. The point is that he lived his beliefs.

I think the theme of tonight was that, instead of telling people that they’re imperfect/sinful (and needing to be redeemed by Jesus’ death) we should be telling people that they are loved and accepted.

I have no trouble believing that the rest of the world are loved and accepted. I have big problems with applying that to myself.

Who is God we are talking about?

Three biblical paradigms:

1. Bondage/Liberation
socialisation = ‘role models’are we just our socialisation?
We have an essential self beyond our socialisaiton
How conscious are we of our socialisation?
Key to liberation is awareness of our social conditioningMaking present events of the ancient past – how?2. Exile/Return
dominant culture issue
dark side of the return was breaking up lives and families
new ways of thinking about these dynamicsis
a “non-oppressive” dominance possible?
Our personal experiences of living overseas contain this element of “coming back”

Myths – ‘alive’ or ‘dead’?

What God can’t cope with – irresponsibility

“Hebrew” word plays used by Spong and other liberals

“dominion” equates to responsibility
– I take responsibility but seek guidance for the right way
= finding a middle of seeking the divine – about being truly and fully responsible.